Alternate pattern cloning behavior

[mgd]

I have lost track of what the different proposed workflows are in detail which IMO is a clear sign that probably neither is intuitive, logical or easy to grasp/remember.

I still agree with the initial claim that the current process of how clones are created feels somewhat awkward. However it is fairly straight forward and easy to remember. I understand that some commands can't be put on shortcuts since shortcuts are a very limited resource. Going into the Nerd Menu always interrupts my workflow and if cloning would involve that I'd consider it a regression

But as I said, I've lost track of the details of the various proposals...

Kind regards,
Michael

[spilthyfred]

But as I said, I've lost track of the details of the various proposals...

Requested behavior when cloning a pattern:

1. the original one stays in its place
2. the clone populates at the first empty spot below it, and
3. the cursor also moves to this new position and the clone pattern is highlighted and "grabbed" so that you can then use the cursors to position the new pattern along the grid, then
4. press OK to execute.

The third part is just to position it elsewhere, but only if you want to. A more simple way to describe the behavior would be:

-Original pattern stays in its place
-Clone pattern goes to first empty spot below it, as does the cursor
-Press OK.... with the option of moving the new pattern elsewhere before doing so. It would have a different highlight color until you pressed OK

This would be an optional cloning behavior turned on in the setup menu. I think it would feel very smooth and seamless.

[mvdirty]

mvdirty, there would be no need for a key combo at all! It would be an alternate behavior that overrides the current behavior for cloning. There could be an option to toggle the behavior on or off in the setup menu. This way you could choose which cloning mode is best for your workflow. For me, the current behavior does not feel right, and for others it might be perfect.

And others might want both options available with predictable effect. (Specifically: no surprises when hitting the existing key combo, like surprises where you realize you’ve left it set to the other mode.)

I still suspect Thomas has the right take on this so far, though I’d nevertheless love to be surprised by an even better option.

[mgd]

Requested behavior when cloning a pattern:
[quote pid='6485' dateline='1617043519']

1. the original one stays in its place
2. the clone populates at the first empty spot below it, and
3. the cursor also moves to this new position and the clone pattern is highlighted and "grabbed" so that you can then use the cursors to position the new pattern along the grid, then
4. press OK to execute.

The third part is just to position it elsewhere, but only if you want to. A more simple way to describe the behavior would be:

-Original pattern stays in its place
-Clone pattern goes to first empty spot below it, as does the cursor
-Press OK.... with the option of moving the new pattern elsewhere before doing so. It would have a different highlight color until you pressed OK

This would be an optional cloning behavior turned on in the setup menu. I think it would feel very smooth and seamless.

Ok, I think I understand this workflow now.

Thinking about it I'm not fully convinced that I want that. I see cases where I would like it but I can likewise make up cases where I don't want that. E.g. assume I want to clone a sequence of patterns. Assume the piece is longer, my originals are at the beginning and the clones shall go somewhere further down. Currently I would copy the [block of] patterns, then move down, hit clone several times and be done. With the newly proposed flow you clone, ideally the pattern appears at the right spot, then you move to the front again and repeat for all pattern. Constructed usecase?
I've just done exactly that in real life

As I said, I see cases where I would prefer the newly proposed flow but meanwhile I think this does optimize one particular workflow while complicating another. I'm in no position to decide which is better. Not sure that I would want this as a switchable option either. In particular I do have a couple of other things I'd like to see first (e.g. tables on MIDI and CV16 tracks, [global] search and replace, ...).

In short:
The process of cloning is just a tiny part of my use of NerdSEQ. Adding [new] ways to actually sequence music would always have my priority. This is particularly true for the proposed ways of evolving/modifying existing sequences while playing.

Kind regards,
Michael

[XORadmin]

splithyfred, can you suggest which key combo you would want to claim for this function? They’re in limited supply, and functions have already been pushed to the nerd menu to avoid adding even more key combos or inconsistency in their behaviour when used in different places. Thomas’ option likely hits the sweet spot.

mvdirty, there would be no need for a key combo at all! It would be an alternate behavior that overrides the current behavior for cloning. There could be an option to toggle the behavior on or off in the setup menu. This way you could choose which cloning mode is best for your workflow. For me, the current behavior does not feel right, and for others it might be perfect.

I got to say that I think the current normal behaviour is the best in my eyes for a single pattern clone (multiple ones would be easy as well).
You clone, you get the new pattern immediately and no field around it on the sequencer screen is affected, overwritten shifted etc.
That would not be natural to have that.

What would be the impact of this special cloning behaviour, (also from the developer view)? :
All editing is as generic as possible and you know pretty everywhere how to navigate or how to change values. They are of course some exclusions, but these are also specialities where a regular editing is not enough.
For now, there is the normal editing and in a marked situation. Something that is common to all the screens. If in mark mode, you are kind of trapped until you either abort or leave the screen or do the editing. Another special mode for only one function would mean a step away from the generic usage (and that for one specific function), you are trapped then in a situation where you can only browse up/down, you still need to press multiple buttons to archieve what you want and it would need also many specials to catch all side-effects. You would need to repeat this for multiple patterns to clone. Also to mention that it would most probably not an obvious result if someone presses SHIFT+OK by accident (even if it would be another setup option, which will for sure be turned on by people without knowing the results). So the work for that would have quite an impact developerwise. It would also be different from the same functions for cloning tables or cloning patches.

I agree also that I rather add sequencing functionality than editing ones for things that can be archieved easily, even without workarounds. The Nerd Menu is in my opinion definitely the way to go for batch actions. ( Not sure what the issues are with the Nerd menu. It is easy to access and adds extra functionality one click further. In the end these are special functions and still you don't have to dive deep into submenus of submenus of submenus....luckily).


I still think my option would be the way to go ( and not because it was my idea...you know I am always happy for other views of people ). Also to do something more with cloning was not on my list at all. So it would be a low-prio thing anyway because you can do all needed already.

Let it sink a bit....

[spilthyfred]

-Original pattern stays in its place
-Clone pattern goes to first empty spot below it, as does the cursor
-Press OK.... with the option of moving the new pattern elsewhere before doing so. It would have a different highlight color until you pressed OK

What would be the impact of this special cloning behaviour, (also from the developer view)? :

The main impact would be that the original pattern always stays in its place, and that the clone would always go where you wanted it, and with the most minimal button presses and no extra menus. 90% of the time I want my clone directly below, so this would BY FAR be the fastest way for me, and I'm sure others too.

From a developer point of view, I understand that a "grab" function would be a little bit difficult to implement, but I think it would be worth it. Again, this could be totally optional, so that the current behavior is still available to those who want it. Personally, I would always leave it on.

Also to mention that it would most probably not an obvious result if someone presses SHIFT+OK by accident (even if it would be another setup option, which will for sure be turned on by people without knowing the results). So the work for that would have quite an impact developerwise. It would also be different from the same functions for cloning tables or cloning patches.

It would be obvious because the cursor would follow and change color to indicate that you are about to place the pattern. I would want this cloning behavior for tables and patches too! It would work the same but with no left/right.

For now, there is the normal editing and in a marked situation.

There could also be a "grab" function in mark mode too (possibly via nerd menu), but this is beyond the scope of my request.

Let it sink a bit....

Ok, I will. But my idea and me are still good friends (there were quite a few +1's too!)

[LostForWords]

I must agree with XOR - the current behaviour is quick and easy.

I've got in to the habit of when I want to clone a pattern I just add the existing pattern in the new place and clone in right there. (I was doing the whole clone > then put it back to the original > then put the cloned one somewhere)

So much easier to think along the lines of stick in the original in a new spot and clone it right where you need it.

[spilthyfred]

Ok, I let it sink in and have a way to simplify this idea... No more searching for the next empty pattern - implement only the 'grab' function instead.

So SHIFT+OK clones the pattern in place like usual, but there is still the opportunity to move the clone elsewhere before pressing OK to place it.

If you want the pattern in the same spot, you would just press OK one more time. If it is moved, then the original pattern stays in place. This could still work for tables and patches, it would just be vertical only.

This could still be an optional cloning behavior turned on/off in the setup screen - for those that prefer the current behavior. I do still think adding a separate highlight color (for the cloned pattern before it is placed) would be beneficial if this option were turned on.

[Demure]

That sounds more complicated than the current behaviour tbh.

[spilthyfred]

I keep thinking about this. I apologize if my original idea was too complicated. I just don't like that the clone replaces the original pattern.

Would it be possible to just have a setting for the clone to be placed directly below the pattern being cloned?

If there was already a pattern below, it would just overwrite that one instead.